Thursday, October 12, 2006

Some questions for conservative Christians (and others)

The main question--and a bit of explanation
NOTE: I use the terms "conservative Christians," "religious conservatives," and "evangelicals." I do not mean to imply that these terms are completely interchangeable. However, from my experience, "evangelicals" tend to be "Conservative Christians." Some people might collectively refer to all of these groups as the "religious right," but I won't use that term here.
I began thinking about this post Monday morning after reading an article from that day's New York Times. And then I saw a report on MSNBC covering the same subject (scroll down to the report by Martin Savidge). Since then, I have seen other reports and articles that, while directly addressing other topics, are nonetheless related to the NYT article and MSNBC report. All of those reports and articles prompt me to ask one basic question of conservative Christians:

What is it going to take to for you to stop voting for Republicans?

Before proceeding, I need to explain my intentions. The NYT article and the October 9 MSNBC report discussed how some evangelicals are still going to absolutely vote Republican in light of the Foley Follies. My first reaction was to be stunned. However, I soon realized that I had also engaged in similar behavior. There has been discussion as recently as last Friday about evangelicals voting for Bush because they just could not bring themselves to vote for Kerry, and I have said several times that I never wanted to vote for Kerry, but there was no way whatsoever that I could vote for Bush. Thus, although the results were different, the sentiment and basis for our votes were the same. In other words, 1) I can on one level understand why evangelicals would continue to vote Republican, and 2) I cannot criticize them as much as I might want to because I have acted in a similar manner.

Because of that, my intention is get a thoughtful answer to my basic question.

Secondarily, I hope to get some idea of where all of us go from here. I have written semi-extensively about my displeasure with the Democratic party (go to the Cosmic Wheel Index, main heading of "Democratic Party" for a list of such posts), and I certainly feel that the party often does not represent me. I pretty much say so in the the description of this blog. What's more, my voting record and campaign efforts in Presidential elections reflect that. I described some of that history in a comment yesterday, but here's a recap and more info. 1980 was my first election, and I wanted to vote for George H.W. Bush, but he dropped out before the Texas primary, and I voted for Anderson. I voted for Mondale in 1984 because there was no way I was voting for Reagan and Fritz had experience and knowledge relevant to the job of President. In 1988 I didn't vote. George H.W. was nowhere close to the same guy I wanted to vote for in 1980, and Dukakis had none of the knowledge and experience that prompted me to vote for Mondale. In 1992, I was supporting Perot, and then it became apparent that his only reason for getting in the race was not to win, but to make sure Bush lost, and I voted for Clinton. I also voted for Clinton in 1996. Then came 2000. I again considered crossing party lines, this time to vote for McCain, but he dropped out before the Texas primary. There was no way I was going to vote for George W. because he simply did not have the experience, knowledge, or intelligence to be President (and I reiterate that I voted for him when he ran for reelection as Texas governor). However, Al Gore did not exactly excite me. Talk about running one of the dumbest campaigns in history--but that's another story. In 2004, I supported, campaigned for, and gave a lot of money to Wes Clark, and after what happened to him and how we ended up with Kerry and Edwards on the ticket, my previous annoyance with the party became rage and disgust. In 2004, I did not vote for Kerry. I voted against Bush.

There is a point to the rambling of the previous paragraph. While I do not share many of the beliefs and social and political positions of Republicans in general and religious conservatives in particular, I sense that I do share a sense of not being represented, and I sense that many other Americans feel the same way. So what do any of us do from here on? Stated differently, although my basic question is directed at conservative Christians, the "spirit" of the question can be directed at traditionally Democratic groups.

With all that in mind...

The NYT article and MSNBC report

The NYT article is entitled "Evangelicals Blame Foley, Not Republican Party." The reporter interviewed evangelicals in Virginia, and for purposes of this post, one sentence sums up the article: "Most of the evangelical Christians interviewed said that so far they saw Mr. Foley’s behavior as a matter of personal morality, not institutional dysfunction." I must note that the article contains quotes from evangelicals who are concerned about the scope of the Foley Follies and what they say about the GOP, but that admittedly is not the focus of this post. Anyway, the article does mention that some evangelicals do not see the Foley Follies as any reason to stop supporting the Republican party. Instead, they see Foley's transgressions as nothing more than transgressions limited only to Foley.

The MSNBC report showed similar views from conservative Christians in Tennessee. The reporter said "But here in Tennessee, at least, Christian conservatives blame former congressman Foley, not the party," and then showed one lady who said "I think (Foley's) actions are horrendous. And—but I don’t see its involvement in the political process. That was an individual, not the political party itself."

Here's what I don't understand. When there is extensive evidence that the leadership of the Republican party knew about Foley's activities, did not try to stop Foley, tried to cover up Foley's activities, and did so for the sake of worldly power (something which is discussed below), how can anyone say that all of this is only Foley's fault? How is it possible to keep from laying some blame on the party?

And then when the nature of Foley's transgressions are taken into account, how is it that some conservative Christians--who I think by and large consider homosexuality a sin--won't hold the Republican party accountable at all? That is why I asked my basic question. If a matter such as the Foley Follies is not going to produce a demand for institutional accountability, then what is it going to take?

And I will add that continually voting Republican is not going to magically produce accountability. As long as the same people get to keep their jobs, nothing is going to change.

Ah, but herein lies the dilemma. Does one vote for the opposition when one feels the opposition has different positions on fundamental matters? Does one just not vote and thus increase the chances of that opposition winning? This is not a simple matter. And yet I still wonder what it will take for evangelicals to stop blindly supporting Republicans.

A theological matter to consider

In addition to being foreshadowed above, this topic was actually raised by my "opposition" in another discussion we had recently--and which will likely become part of this discussion--in which he noted that his faith teaches "to be in the world, not of the world," and that is why conservative Christians generally did not get heavily involved in politics in the past.

In an October 9 online commentary for Newsweek, Jon Meachum wrote the following:
The secular can tend to caricature religious activists in politics as determined theocrats—and Lord knows some Christian leaders (Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson come to mind) say and do things that make the secular case almost too easy to advance. But there is another important milieu within the American religious community which holds that politics is intrinsically sinful—that, in theological terms, one must, as the Psalmist said, “put not thy trust in princes.” Cal Thomas and Chuck Colson—the former worked for Falwell; the latter for Nixon—are exemplars of this view, as is the distinguished historian of religion and evangelical Christian Mark A. Noll. (Noll wrote the seminal text on this subject, “The Search For Christian America,” with Nathan O. Hatch and George M. Marsden; I cannot recommend the book highly enough for anyone who wants to understand religion and politics in our nation and in our time.) Thomas’ book on this subject, written with Ed Dobson, is also essential: “Blinded By Might: Why the Religious Right Can’t Save America,” as is Colson’s “Kingdoms in Conflict.”

Broadly put, the theological case for the religious to steer clear of politics, or at least to avoid believing that the accumulation and exercise of earthly power should be one’s focus, lies in words Jesus spoke to Pilate. “My kingdom is not of this world …” he said to the proconsul, a point echoed by St. Paul, who said that, for Christians, “all are one” in Jesus, and that God favors no nation or class or race or sex. “We have no lasting city,” writes the author of Hebrews, “but seek the city which is to come.” Politicians can be false gods; for believers, the argument goes, there can be no other god before God.
By the way, this blog's conservative Christian participant has criticized Pat Robertson here.

Meachum also could have cited Jesus's admonition to"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." (Matthew 22:21).

In any event, Meachum does bring up a theological dilemma. However, this is like the dilemma I described in the previous section of this post. Still, it seems to me that the House Republican leaders--and, frankly, any other House Republicans who are defending Hastert--are pursuing ends that relate only to worldly power without regard to spiritual matters. If that is indeed the case, is that the tipping point for conservative Christians in terms of supporting the Republican party?

If not, then there is a more practical matter to consider...

What if you are used and treated disdainfully?

Yesterday Kevin Drum posted this excerpt from an exchange between Tucker Carlson and Chris Mattews:
CARLSON: It goes deeper than that though. The deep truth is that the elites in the Republican Party have pure contempt for the evangelicals who put their party in power.

MATTHEWS: So this gay marriage issue and other issues related to the gay lifestyle are simply tools to get elected?

CARLSON: That's exactly right. It's pandering to the base in the most cynical way, and the base is beginning to figure it out.
Drum also made note of a book by David Kuo called Tempting Faith, in which Kuo pretty much blasts the Bush administration. Kuo details how conservatives Christians have been used, abused, and dismissed by the Bush administration. Read Kevin's post for more info. You can also go to the Countdown website to see the video of the first part of a report on this subject. The first part aired last night, and the second part airs tonight.

Then again, you can read what I wrote on March 18, 2005 (scroll down to "The faith-based initiative" section for info about Kuo).

Conclusion

So, what is it going to take for conservative Christians to stop reflexively voting Republican? While I certainly think there exist ample reasons to stop, it is very easy for me to reach that conclusion. As I said, this presents a serious dilemma, and it is one that those of us who are not conservative Christians likely have faced, are facing, or will face in the future. So, what to do?

Well, my reaction in the past has been to vote for Anderson, not vote, and work like crazy for an outsider candidate in whom I truly believed (Clark) only to get completely crapped on by my own party. And look at all the good that has done me.

And in November, I will vote for Kinky Friedman for governor. At least I will be smiling instead of holding my nose when marking my ballot.

13 Comments:

Blogger WCharles said...

I never expected an answer in one post. As you know, this ain't "Soundbite City" in general, and this topic is a multifaceted one.

While I largely agree with your "throw the bums out" concern, my concern about a "pendulum swing" is based more on a concern that should the Democrats regain the majority they will engage in much the same type of behavior AND not much will get done in a substantive sense. In other words, lessons will not be learned and applied, and time will be wasted. Then the pendulum will swing back to the Republicans and the process will largely (but not completely) repeat. And so on and so on...

"And ultimately, how is a party defined, by a few leaders at the top or by the majority of those in the rank and file?"

Now this is an excellent question. An answer from me is going to require a separate post...

Indeed, I am also going to need several posts to begin to address some of the othr points you have raised so far.

10/13/2006 9:31 AM  
Blogger WCharles said...

In the meantime, here's a question to ponder: How does the "rank and file" of either party hold its leadership accountable?

10/13/2006 10:29 AM  
Blogger WCharles said...

Given that I have a crazy schedule between now and at least Sunday afternoon, I likely will not make any significant contributions to this discussion until Sunday evening, so instead I will just annoy you with a few more observations and questions.

"I think that is an erroneous premise. Bush's ratings in the polls have dropped since this all came about...It is predicted the democrats will gain control of Congress. I think people will hold the republican party accountable."

So is it through voting that the "rank and file" hold the party leadership and party as an institution accountable?

"Besides, it has been reported for several months and we have discussed it here on this blog that Bush has lost the support of conservative Christians over the past couple of years due to his very unconservative like leadership."

But does that ever get to the point where, standing alone, conservative Christians stop voting for Republicans who exhibit these same characteristics?

Again, I am not trying to be judgmental or snarky. These types of questions are applicable across party and ideological lines. I am trying to answer them within the context of my own personal views as well.

10/13/2006 3:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"So is it through voting that the "rank and file" hold the party leadership and party as an institution accountable?"

I think it difficult for rank and file legislators to hold party leadership accountable, ultimately the accountability is to the electorate. The problem grunt legislators have is that they have no real leverage over their leadership, especially if that leadership is acting in concert since the leadership makes the committee assignments. It is too easy for leadership to punish recalcitrant legislators by giving them meaningless assignments or ostracizing them.

The real accountability will occur at the polls this November. Any official up for election that evidence shows was part of a coverup should be voted out. History shows that is more likely to happen with republican officials than democratic officials.

Republican voters will do the right thing as opposed to democrats returning their unethical and immoral officials to office. Republican Daniel Crane in 1983 admitted to having sex with a 17 year old female page and voters rejected him. Democrat Gerry Studds had a sexual affair with a 17 year old male page in 1983 and he was kept in Congress by the voters until his retirement in 1996. Need I remind of Ted Kennedy's 1969 dalliance with a young woman resulting in her death? In the face of overwhelming evidence of his grossly immoral behavior the democrats put on their blinders.

And in a nutshell that is why I will continue to support republican candidates. They are not perfect. They make gross errors. The difference is the republicans will discipline those who stray. The democrats will merely laugh and say, "boys will be boys".

10/14/2006 7:28 PM  
Blogger WCharles said...

"The difference is the republicans will discipline those who stray."

While you are bringing up the past transgressions of Democrats, don't forget about those of Republicans. Newt Gingrich certainly comes to mind. Also, during the Clinton witch hunt, it was shown that other prominent Republicans--including Henry Hyde--were also guilty of infidelity, and those officials were not voted out. Furthermore, take a long look at what Republicans have done since being in complete control--especially from 2002 forward. I'm talking about things like the Iraq war, record deficits, record spending, etc. And even though the problems with matters such as these were exposed and well-documented, the Republicans were not been held accountable by the voters. In other words, Republican voters have done nothing to hold Republican officials accountable in the recent past, and to say that they will now is far from a given.

"The democrats will merely laugh and say, 'boys will be boys'."

And what have the GOP and Republican voters been doing over the last 5-6 years?

Be careful when painting with such a broad brush...especially when the conduct of the Republican leadership appears to have been to merely laugh and say "It's okay for men to be with boys." And also recall that I have depicted the Foley Follies as part of an ongoing pattern of Republicans doing whatever it takes just for the sake of gaining and keeping power. In that regard, Tom DeLay is at the top of the list--and by the way, he also was not held accountable by the voters.

I am not going to say that the Studds and Kennedy matters are irrelevant, but I do want to know the degree to which you think they are relevant to issues concerning Republican scandals today. Are Republican voters going to use the past conduct of Democratic voters as a basis for continuing to vote Republican? (And please note the converse of that question can asked of Democratic voters.)

10/15/2006 1:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'll have to address your latest questions later and still want to address one of your initial statements, that the republicans have courted the conservative Christian vote laughing at them behind their backs.

But for now a quote by Jonathan Chait, senior editor at The New Republic. "There is a vast gulf separating the Democrats and the Republicans over public policy matters that affect hundreds of millions of people. Voting on the basis of how they handle a few teenagers is just silly."

That will be the basis of my next post. I agree that bringing up past sins of the opposing party doesn't really help, it merely establishes that neither party is perfect and thus we conservative Christians cannot necessarily just abandon the Republicans because there would not be a home for us in the Democratic party either. My previous post merely addressed your first question, "What is it going to take to for you to stop voting for Republicans?" Voting for Democrats isn't the answer.

On a postive note, Giants are looking good! Are your fingers crossed?

10/15/2006 3:00 PM  
Blogger WCharles said...

"There is a vast gulf separating the Democrats and the Republicans over public policy matters that affect hundreds of millions of people."

Ah, but is there really? That question is part of where I'm going in this discussion, but more on that in a moment.

"Voting for Democrats isn't the answer."

Now that you have established that, the next question is whether voting for Republicans is the answer.

And that brings me back to "where I'm going." My record certainly shows that I have expressed my disagreements with my party at the voting booth (and will again this November), and while those actions allow me to know I have acted in accordance with my principles, they have not necessarily held any Democratic official or candidate accountable, nor have they kept Republicans out of office. Yet for me, often the Republican alternative is no alternative at all.

Neither party represents me. There is not that much difference between the two in terms of substantive policy, they both treat governance as a game to see which party can get and keep power, one (the GOP) is too cowardly to admit mistakes, and the other (Democrats) is too cowardly to make a stand on many issues. And I could go on and on.

Here's my point: the two-party system, as it exists today, is a steaming pile of crap.

Although it does not completely reflect my still-developing views on the matter, this paragraph from an editorial by Ilana Mercerframes the issue:

"The Republican Quislings have contributed greatly to the convergence of left and right. What we have now is a cartel, the traditional ideological differences between the political parties having been permanently blurred (both Democrats and Republicans, for instance, see merit in wars for democracy, limitless immigration, and a massive expansion in Medicare and other entitlements). If anything, antitrust laws ought to be deployed, not against business, but to bust this two-party monopoly, which subverts competition in government and rewards the colluding quislings with sinecures in perpetuity."

Read the whole editaorial at
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50375

And one last question to ponder: how is voting for either party going to solve anything?

10/15/2006 4:44 PM  
Blogger WCharles said...

Oh yeah...the Giants did look good today. If only the Cowboys had lost today, it would have been an even better day in the NFC East.

10/15/2006 6:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Here's my point: the two-party system, as it exists today, is a steaming pile of crap."

Funny how so often we can find common ground. George Washington was not the most brilliant politian, but he did warn of the dangers of a 2 party system.

I think one evidence of what you were saying in your previous post is the 2 party system at the local level. Just exactly what is the difference between the democratic and republican candidates for mayor or town council or dog catcher? It often is merely a label that allows them to qualify to be on the ballot.

OK, I will concede one point, we both agree the political system has major faults and voting a straight party ticket isn't going to clean up the party's acts.

10/15/2006 6:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"...both Democrats and Republicans, for instance, see merit in wars for democracy, limitless immigration, and a massive expansion in Medicare and other entitlements..."

I disagree with that premise. I have read of Republicans who have opposed those entitlements and many entitlements sponsored by liberal Democrats in general. Those Republicans who are more centrist with social liberal leanings have blurred the lines with their support of entitlements. Bush falls into this camp. I suspect if we had found WMD in Iraq and there had been a clear connection to 9/11 and the Saddam had been key to fueling terrorism, the liberals would love Bush. NY Governor Pataki has already set up headquarters in Vermont and Iowa as a presidential candidate. Slap a liberal title on him because he would make an excellent Democrat. He's probably more liberal than Bill Clinton.

People like Pataki are trying to take over the Republican leadership and they are the ones who will court the conservative Christian votes and the ones to dump us as quickly as possible. If the next presidential election were between Pataki and Bill Clinton, it would be a coin toss, literally.

10/15/2006 7:01 PM  
Blogger WCharles said...

"[W]e both agree the political system has major faults and voting a straight party ticket isn't going to clean up the party's acts."

Indeed. I hate straight ticket options on ballots.

"If the next presidential election were between Pataki and Bill Clinton, it would be a coin toss, literally."

Well, Bill can't run for President again (although he could be elected VP, but that's a different topic). I'm just hoping there is not another Clinton on the ballot--something else on which we likely agree.

10/15/2006 7:26 PM  
Blogger WCharles said...

Regarding the MSNBC report, I will agree that it supports your comments, but only to a degree. That report focuses on Hastert, and he is not the only person involved. What is going on with the other members of the leadership who couldn't wait to throw Hastert under the bus in order to save themselves?

That being said, recent reports have Reynolds facing serious troble, so maybe you will end up being right.

Your second comment from today is the one that really interests me. Indeed, compromise is an inherent component of most group dynamics, and I certainly can relate to how you describe it in the context of choosing a political party.

This issue of compromise is relevant on a much bigger scale, but for now I want to keep the focus on our two-party system. I have asked "Where does one draw the line?" and "When is enough enough?" I consider the other question I have raised as being the really important one, namely "What do any of us do?" If we don't compromise, we are no longer part of a system, and without that system, can we accomplish anything? Yet if we do compromise, we help perpetuate the system, and the chances for change are very small. This characterization is oversimplified, but that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

10/16/2006 9:55 PM  
Blogger WCharles said...

During this past Saturday's conversation I mentioned in the Kinky post, my good friend related a discussion he had with someone in the Dalls County Democratic party organization. My friend was told by this person--who would be in a position to know--that Dallas County in general was beginning to trend Democratic, and that the area of the Dallas trending that direction the most was Park Cities.

Allow me to explain. I think I have said this elsewhere on this blog, but if not, just know what follows has been my opinion for many years. I have felt that there is no more Republican place in the entire country than Dallas, Texas. And within Dallas, the hardest-core Republican area is Park Cities. Period. You will just have to trust me on this. My friend said that apparently the reason for this trend is that people are fed up with the Republican party.

This, of course, supports your basic arguments. And while it pains me to admit you might be right, I actually will feel better if your "voter accountability" argument turns out to be right.

10/18/2006 5:59 PM  

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